For instance, this Divia lady you mention and her husband even changed their last name to ‘Eden’, the name of the earthly paradise in the Bible, and married in a ceremony officiated by Yudkowsky.
A marriage ceremony, officiated by an available elder of some sort. Name changes. Wow, what sort of crazy culture or subculture would do that kind of thing? Oh, right. Most of them, in some shape or form. This was actually a hat tip towards normality, not the reverse. Like celebrating Christmas with family and friends without actually believing in a Christ.
V_V’s comments do serve as datapoints towards what elements can look cultish to outsiders even though, I agree with you,such a thing would be unfair as pretty much every community does these things.
V_V’s utterances about what looks cultish are generally useless in regards to talking about ideas: trying to shame us into not having certain ideas, just because they look bad is rather a circular and useless argument. (and frankly “transhumanism” “cryonics”, “AI apocalypse” bring to mind the low status of an SF geek, not the low status of a cult, so V_V’s words miss doubly the mark in this respect)
On the other hand practices like marriage ceremonies and cohabitations pattern-match more, and so it’s something to be careful about from a Public Relations perspective. But it’s not as if I’m sure whether they’re a net positive or a net negative all things considered; so consider my words to be hesitant and uncertain, not really sharing into V_V’s criticism...
On the other hand practices like marriage ceremonies and cohabitations pattern-match more, and so it’s something to be careful about from a Public Relations perspective.
Pattern matching and public relations are both interesting and important and using V_V as an outsider datapoint while doing so would produce unreliable results.
I have to disagree here. Even if from the outside view christian marriage or whatever is equally as weird as yudkowskian marriage, it definitely feels cultish to me and I’m an atheist. The normal way to get married is NOT by a friend of yours whose teachings you follow.
Errh. What is the normal way to get married then, from your view? Mail a letter to the nearest municipal or judicial office?
“Getting married”, once shed of all religious connotations and other nasty bits, is a social contract before witnesses published so that: 1) The spouses are more motivated to cooperate and remain at a high level of mutual affection. 2) Individuals not part of the marriage (i.e. everyone else) are aware that these spouses are “together” presumably for a long time and that they should not get in their way and they are not “available”.
I don’t think you’re using the right reference class for the question. If we’re talking about the set of people who might find Less Wrong interesting, I predict that most of them would find it more weird if two atheists from atheist families got married by a priest than if they got married by the head of an Internet community. (Most normal for that reference class is picking a celebrant who’s just a friend, or a Unitarian minister, or a comedian, etc.)
I’ve got a number of friends in non-SingInst/LW circles who’ve been married in public ceremonies overseen by friends whom they consider wise, or instrumental in their social groups, or simply good speakers. I don’t have any actual data, but in the circles I run in it seems like one of the more popular secular options.
A marriage ceremony, officiated by an available elder of some sort. Name changes. Wow, what sort of crazy culture or subculture would do that kind of thing? Oh, right. Most of them, in some shape or form. This was actually a hat tip towards normality, not the reverse. Like celebrating Christmas with family and friends without actually believing in a Christ.
Your ranting is nonsense. Get some perspective.
V_V’s comments do serve as datapoints towards what elements can look cultish to outsiders even though, I agree with you,such a thing would be unfair as pretty much every community does these things.
I do not model V_V as someone whose utterances can be considered representative of outsiders.
V_V’s utterances about what looks cultish are generally useless in regards to talking about ideas: trying to shame us into not having certain ideas, just because they look bad is rather a circular and useless argument. (and frankly “transhumanism” “cryonics”, “AI apocalypse” bring to mind the low status of an SF geek, not the low status of a cult, so V_V’s words miss doubly the mark in this respect)
On the other hand practices like marriage ceremonies and cohabitations pattern-match more, and so it’s something to be careful about from a Public Relations perspective. But it’s not as if I’m sure whether they’re a net positive or a net negative all things considered; so consider my words to be hesitant and uncertain, not really sharing into V_V’s criticism...
Pattern matching and public relations are both interesting and important and using V_V as an outsider datapoint while doing so would produce unreliable results.
I have to disagree here. Even if from the outside view christian marriage or whatever is equally as weird as yudkowskian marriage, it definitely feels cultish to me and I’m an atheist. The normal way to get married is NOT by a friend of yours whose teachings you follow.
Errh. What is the normal way to get married then, from your view? Mail a letter to the nearest municipal or judicial office?
“Getting married”, once shed of all religious connotations and other nasty bits, is a social contract before witnesses published so that: 1) The spouses are more motivated to cooperate and remain at a high level of mutual affection. 2) Individuals not part of the marriage (i.e. everyone else) are aware that these spouses are “together” presumably for a long time and that they should not get in their way and they are not “available”.
That’s the way I see it / was taught, anyway.
In a church, with two families present, by a priest. Just because it’s nonsense doesn’t make it not normal.
I don’t think you’re using the right reference class for the question. If we’re talking about the set of people who might find Less Wrong interesting, I predict that most of them would find it more weird if two atheists from atheist families got married by a priest than if they got married by the head of an Internet community. (Most normal for that reference class is picking a celebrant who’s just a friend, or a Unitarian minister, or a comedian, etc.)
I’ve got a number of friends in non-SingInst/LW circles who’ve been married in public ceremonies overseen by friends whom they consider wise, or instrumental in their social groups, or simply good speakers. I don’t have any actual data, but in the circles I run in it seems like one of the more popular secular options.